Minutes
of UKA Course Measurement Working Party – 29 Nov 2008.Minutes
of UKA Course Measurement Working Party – 29 Nov 2008.Final approved version published 6 Dec 2008
Download a .pdf file of this page for easy printing.
Held at UCL, London
Present: Hugh Jones (CMWP chairman), Area Measurement Secretaries: John Glover (NI), Phil Holland (Midlands), Alan Ritchie (North), Mike Sandford (South), Alan Young (Scotland).
Apology: Paul Hodgson
Absent: Tim Glasser (Wales)
Mike Sandford was appointed by the meeting to draft the minutes for approval by members.
(ACTION – Mike Sandford to email Adam Thomas of AS and request Alan Ritchie being included in the emailed distribution) – DONE. Now receiving lists OK
(ACTION – All measurement secretaries, and UKA measurers - Send copies of measurement reports for Scottish races to Alan Young) – DONE. Reports for new courses are being received
(ACTION – Hugh Jones draft letter to be sent to Scotland and Northern Ireland on behalf of the UKCMWP.) DONE. Has had useful effect in NI. For Scotland see report at item 4 below.
(ACTION – Hugh Jones to ask John Temperton the outcome about his licence enquiries and to confirm that no further action was required to establish course measurers' role for the UKA) DONE - no further action requested.
(ACTION – Mike Sandford send one medium, one large vest to Phil Holland.) DONE
(ACTION – Phil Holland - purchase more high visibility bibs with course measurer on back) – NOT done yet. Further action agreed since Mike now has only 2 vests left. Both Phil and Mike to get quote for at least 20 depending on price breaks. UKA to pay.
(ACTION – Mike Sandford to purchase some signs and trial their use) NOT done yet.
Phil Holland offered to convert measurers' post codes to grid references so that all measurers could be plotted on a map of the UK to appear on the website as is presently done for measurers in the South. (ACTION – Mike Sandford/Phil Holland) DONE also see minutes of item 9 below.
Alan Ritchie said that he thought it would be preferable to provide his course data for direct display on the website rather than as a link to data on the NOEAA website where it has appeared hitherto. (ACTION – Alan Ritchie) DONE.
(ACTION – Mike Sandford circulate draft safety code, for agreement before publication for measurers.) DONE- now published and accepted by UKA.
Members of the CMWP had been very surprised by lack of information about their role as a UKA body, which appeared to exist in the RRLG. They noted that the RRLG could have obtained some background on the earlier history of the CMWP from one the RRLG's co-opted members, who is a senior course measurer.
Hugh Jones suggested we should write up for the website a history of the administration of course measurement in the UK as it progressed after John Jewell's pioneering work in 1961, through the days when it was the responsibility of the RRC, then the AAA, then BAF, and finally the UKA. It could be placed on the website. Mike Tomlins, Max Coleby, Paul Hodgson should be approached and invited to contribute some of the earlier details. John Disley should be invited to review the history once it has been drafted..
Mike Sandford reviewed the letter written in 1999 by John Disley as chairman of of the CMWP to Dave Moorcroft as CEO of UK Athletics. From the response Disley received it had been clear that UKA intended to continue to recognise the CMWP as its body through confirmation of the CMWP's chairman and appointment of its secretary, and that the CMWP had responsibility for organising course measurement nationally.
Hugh Jones said that he had been asked by the UKA's RR Management Committee to take over the chairmanship of the CMWP after Disley had relinquished the position, and revitalise it. All noted that this appointment had led to the the current healthy situation were the CMWP effectively coordinates on all issues arising during the course of a year, and each year holds a business meeting to review the position. The operation of the CMWP is made as transparent as is easily practical. In particular full minutes of the annual meeting are published on the website.
The RRLG's draft consultation paper had raised the possibility of course measurement being carried out by an independently constituted body under contract to the RRLG. The CMWP reviewed some possibilities:
Some concerns were expressed that this would involve additional work, in setting up a constitution and operating it, providing at the minimum a treasurer and secretary, and securing insurance independent of the the UKA scheme. Phil Holland said it might be possible to keep these overheads to an acceptable level (ACTION – Phil Holland; investigate possible constitutions based on charitable organisations and similar to which he has access.)
Seek another running organisation to take us under their administrative wing
Phil Holland suggested we might approach the Road Runners Club. This was the organisation that first took responsibilities for organising course measurement nationally before the 1980's. Hugh said that he was currently president on RRC and he could raise the matter with the officers and see if there was any interest in becoming the parent body of the CMWP and the UKA measurers. (ACTION – Hugh Jones discuss CMWP affiliation with RRC Officers. Target time – 1 to 2 weeks.)
The British Association of Road Races was another body we could come under. An advantage of coming under the wing of that organisation would be that it already carries out work for the RRLG in scrutineering race standards. Members of the CMWP had experience of working with BARR's president Bill Reynolds who has been at the centre of setting up race standards and safety assessments for many years (ACTION – Hugh Jones to discuss CMWP affiliation with Bill Reynolds of BARR. Target time – 1 to 2 weeks.)
Stay as UKA body with the CMWP retaining much of its present responsibilities.
Mike Sandford that this should be given serious consideration. He had been concerned that some measurers might be lost if their formal recognition as UKA-accredited measurer was lost. However, none of the five measurers, who had responded to his circulation for comment of the draft RRLG consultation paper, highlighted a special concern about this. Nevertheless, he said that he personally would feel a loss, if his role as a course measurer, first undertaken 17 years ago as a way of supporting the national governing body, was now to be handed over to an outside body, so that a measurer could no longer stand beside the other nationally organised volunteers, who support road races. The CMWP agreed that this option should still be kept on the table and they were ready to provide documentation of procedures to provide additional transparency and to make agreements which might help to make it possible for the RRLG to accept this.
On balance, the CMWP felt that option 3, staying as a body within the UKA, was their preferred option, if the existing arrangements and procedures were acceptable to RRLG.
By Alan Young
Measurements
Still only 2 "active" measurers.
Total Measured through Area Sec - (includes one measured by North of England Measurer)
Marathon 3
Half Marathon 9
10K 18
5 mile 1
Others 6
TOTAL 37
Certificates
Traditionally none issued, but copy of the Measurement Report provided to Race Director. Draft now prepared with view to being issued from 2009 onwards.
Role with Scottish Athletics
From 1st April 2008 Scottish Athletics have met (with the exception of 1 marathon) my expenses incurred in carrying out Course Measurements throughout Scotland.
Note: Expenses only, with measurers not charging for their time.
Not sure if this is to continue or not.
ARC
No approach from them in Scotland.
Training
No new measurers have been trained, but Scottish Athletics were still very supportive if sufficient numbers were to come forward.
Alan Young
The requests for 'official' Course Measurement for specific distance declared events has increased in the last two seasons helped along by the 'encouragement' of Athletics Northern Ireland, the body which issues permits. At present there is no obligation upon Race Directors due to the fact that the present measurer is still not officially accredited by the UK CMWP a situation which Athletics NI is very keen should be resolved as soon as possible.
Athletics Northern Ireland was particularly concerned that the measurement of the Belfast Marathon which I carried out should be officially ratified and to that end they sought the support of Tommy McCormick from Dublin, a Grade A IAAF measurer. In company with Tommy I set out a new Calibration Course at the Titanic Quarter and the Marathon Course was re-measured and ratified.
Subsequent events measured have been:
Newtownards Half Marathon
Newry Marathon and Half Marathon
Omagh Half Marathon
Joe Seeley 10k
Banbridge 10k
Titanic Quarter 10k – 2007 & 2008 different courses
Les Jones 10k
NI Veterans 5 mile
Run Armagh 10k (this as a result of the Race Director contacting
me through the Measurer's Web Site and not Athletics NI)
There are also requests pending for:
Drapertown l0k
`Jimmy's' l0k
Larne Half Marathon
`Mary Peters at 70' Road Race - distance TBC
Since there are a limited number of 'specific distance' road races in the Province the above constitutes a high percentage 'officially' measured.
John T Glover, NI Measurement Secretary
There are 36 accredited measurers, including 2 or 3 who measure races in other regions.
4 are qualified to IAAF standard, 9 are grade one, and 23 are grade two.
A few measurers are not very productive, particularly in the North East Where road races are being forced off the public highway.
A measurers' up-grading day was held on 10th May this year at Blackpool.. The course was supervised by Alan Ritchie and Paul Hodgson. There were six candidates. Five were upgraded from 2 to 1 and one was deferred.
The emphasis was on practical work; however the feedback afterwards indicated that the measurers also learned a lot from meeting and comparing experiences with each other.
It is particularly pleasing that our isolated representative on the Isle of Man is now qualified to recruit and provide some training to others.
This course was directed towards the North West, the next will be for the Yorkshire area.
In 2008 from January to November inclusive, 70 CM certificates have been issued.
Since declaring last year that the role of CM secretary for the North of England is to be handed over, no-one has been appointed.
10 Jones counters (5 digit) are held in stock which are owned by Northern Athletics.
Alan Ritchie - Course Measurement Secretary, North of England - 28th November 2008
Measurers
I have 5 Grade 1 and 9 Grade 2. The area is reasonably covered, except Herefordshire, although I have to pick up rather a lot in the Bristol/Gloucester area. There is also a new measurer about to be added to the list in Birmingham, and I hope to benefit from another just over the border in Wiltshire.
Measurements
66 measurements in 2008 - 20 new courses, 46 revisions. This includes 3 courses measured for ARC. I've received 11 of the measurement reports as email attachments.
Certificates
162 issued for 2008 events, including 13 for ARC and 10 off-road, plus 20 for 2009, 1 for ARC. My circular to race organisers last year has had an effect, and I've only needed to post 33 certificates. The remainder have been emailed.
Requests for certificates arrived by the following routes:
From Measurers 66
Email from organiser 43
Post from organiser 14
Reply to my circular 30
Self (via MCAA) 8
Permit/licence appl 2
Link with Licence System (Athletics Services)
This is ineffective (as the last figure above shows). I carried out an analysis of 2008 events, based on partial data. I've tried to complete this, but have given up in frustration over the difficulty of matching AS information with my records. The following figures summarise the position.
The list of licences issued by Athletics Services dated 03 Jul 08 includes details of 220 races in the Midlands. As far as I can tell, 82 of these races do not require a course measurement certificate, leaving 138 which do. Of this 138, 32 are recorded as "No CM Form", meaning the licence application was incomplete. Nevertheless, a licence was issued. I have, however, issued measurement certificates for 13 of these 32 races. Of the 138, I have issued measurement certificates for 75; no measurement certificate has been issued for 62, and 1 is pending. These races probably account for about half the total - the remainder appear on an earlier list of permits, or on later lists of licences.
Phil Holland
The new common certificate format discussed last year has been implemented in the on-line system for all South certificates.
In the last 12 months 121 new courses have been certified. 386 certificates of course accuracy have been issued during the year. Since 121 would have been for new courses, one can deduce that 265 were renewals of previous certificates. This is very substantially less than the number which should have been issued if all road races claiming a distance had applied for renewals.
While the on-line renewal system is working very well only a proportion of race directors are using it. I have had several blitzes trying to renew certificates when an irregular excel file comes through from Athletics Services. I have tried to automate this but it has proved impossible because formats change and data is missing. It will only be sensible to tackle an efficient renewal system when fixed unchanging format can be agreed. Even then there are anomalies with the present excel file which appears hand produced. We have suggested on line access to data submitted by course directors who apply on-line on the new runbritain.com website but we have so far been told that this is not possible.
During the year four new trainees from UKA clubs have completed their theory courses and practicals, and are now accredited as graded 2 measurers. This was done with 4 practical sessions one at Abingdon. One of these was tutored jointly by Phil Holland and Mike Sandford. (this joint one included 2 trainees from ARC clubs, who, it is expected, will also measure for UKA events.)
One experienced grade 2 measurer rode jointly with Mike Sandford, and as a result was upgraded to 1.
One measurer resigned, unfortunately this followed a measurement report which needed to be questioned concerning some counter readings which were not included as they should have been. Unable to get acceptable details out of the measurer, I offered to send the report, which I judged to be unacceptable, to another area secretary for certification. But the measurer resigned without taking up this suggestion. This resulted in a race without a certificate, there being no opportunity to arrange another measurer before the event. In such circumstances I would have hoped that funding of the additional measurement could have been done without charge to race director. I would have even travelled the large distance at my own expense if necessary, but I would have hoped that this would be considered to be a legitimate expense to be met by the UKA having regard for all the circumstances. In fact this event still probably needs a measure for next year, so I would like to see a free measurement done – the organiser was just the victim of the situation.
Mike Sandford
It was noted that John Glover and Alan Young had not yet been formally graded as UKA measurers.
In view of John Glover's measurement experience during the last year and the fact that he had ridden with an IAAF/AIMS measurer when measuring the Belfast Marathon, the CMWP decided that he should be formally accredited as a grade 2 measurer subject to the inspection of one his measurement reports by another area measurement secretary. It was desirable that he should be upgraded to grade 1 as soon as possible subject to experience and a practical assessment by a UKA grade 1 measurer. Hugh offered to carry this out if a suitable occasion arose, such as a measuring trip to Northern Ireland.
(ACTION – John Glover - Supply report for review. CMWP accredit
John as grade 2 on completion of satisfactory review)
(Note added 6 Dec. - Alan Ritchie reported that John's measurement report
for the Titanic Quater 10k was accurate and of a high standard -- Accordingly
John Glover is now accredited as a grade 2 UKA course measurerthis -- this action
is now completed.)
Alan Young had been graded as an IAAF/AIMS grade B measurer (ie qualified to measure races internationally) by Hugh Jones who had measured a course with Alan. In view of this and the considerable experience Alan had acquired during the measurement of over 30 courses this year, the CMWP had no hesitation in confirming Alan as an accredited grade 1 UKA course measurer.
Proposals by Phil Holland to formalise the maximum adjustment of a course allowed to be made by a race director without calling on a measurer to check were discussed.
Hugh Jones noted that AIMS/IAAF had recently considered this point and decided limits should be set.
It was already the practice of several area measurement secretaries to allow limited adjustments of this type where there was no risk of a mistake.
The policy agreed by the meeting was that maximum taped adjustment to the start/finish that could be made by a race director should be limited to about 100m to 150m, but this must be in a straight line, without introducing additional corners or bends. In all cases the race director should consult the original measurer and the area measurement secretary and supply a clear plan showing the adjustment. The plan will be added to the original report if approved, and an appropriate certificate issued to certify the modified course as accurate.
RRLG Consultation Paper
(received in a file named Course_measurement_discussion_paper_draft_0811_Nov_18.pdf)
This had been received by CMWP from Andrew Taylor of the RRLG on 19 November, with a request for comments. There had followed a “lively” series of emails mostly copied to the CMWP members and on the RRLG “side” to Andrew Taylor, Bill Reynolds, John Temperton, and Max Coleby. Also Phil and Mike had sent copies to measurers in their areas asking for comments – Phil had so far received a comments from 2 measurers, Mike had comments from 6 out of 38 measurers sent a copy by email.
After some discussion of various aspects of the paper, the CMWP concluded that many good points had already been made in the emails that had circulated. However it would be impossible to draft a formal reply during the meeting, so it would be best rewrite the document to provide an accurate reflection of the present constitution and methods of operation of the CMWP and its management of the course measurement for the UKA. Shortcomings of coordination with the present licensing procedures should be included. Also the options for the future management of the CMWP would be addressed.
ACTION – Phil Holland to produce first draft of response to the consultation paper and circulate to CMWP for detailed comment. Target time – 1 to 2 weeks.
Phil Holland and Mike Sandford had pointed out to both Athletics Services and Andrew Taylor of the RRLG the detailed problems they had in obtaining the full information for certificates which needed renewing. The system works well when the information is provided directly to the measurement secretary by the race director. However, the information currently provided through the licensing system, it is often fragmentary, irregular, late, and too difficult to use when it reaches the measurement secretary. Since this matter has been highlighted in the RRLG's draft consultation paper, it was agreed that the CMWP would wait to see what improvements this would bring before taking further action.
Alan Ritchie said he hoped to be able run a seminar near Leeds or Sheffield early next year to upgrade about 6 grade 2 measurers. Both Phil Holland and Mike Sandford also had a few measurers who might be interested in an upgrading seminar, however, they had not yet made any plans to hold a seminar due to pressure of other work.
Two trainees had come forward, potentially to cover Avon and Wilts. A third trainee in East Suffolk had started the on-line theory lessons, it was probable therefore a practical day would need to be organised for all of these early in 2009.
Mike Sandford tabled the following report:
There have been only minor externally visible developments of the web site over the past year. The main effort has been routine updates and maintenance.
New pages created include 2 written by Mike Sandford prompted by the use of GPS by runners. The safety code written by the CMWP was also published.
Because of shortage of storage space on the web-server, most course maps for the South have been moved to the separate web-server operated for the ARC, (both UKA and ARC need to be provided with maps and this has been a practical and equitable way of sharing the hosting load.)
A facility is partly developed which will enable course measurers to have direct access to the more recent measurement reports in the South, since these have been scanned since 2004. At present they are stored off line and so can only be supplied after application to me. Online direct access for measurers will speed the process up. If there is a call for it from race officials or runners, I would consider making reports available on line to the public, subject to the agreement of measurers.
Phil Holland and Mike Sandford did some work to set up a map of England with all current measurers marked on it. This was done for the ARC runningcourses web site. The more advanced design used for this map means that maintenance and updating with new measurers or their details is very simple – only requiring database entries. Measurers' locations are plotted according to their grid reference. Having developed the web page with the map it would be sensible to deploy the same facility on the UKA site or at least to link it. At present on the UKA site only the South measurers are shown on a clickable map – for Midlands and the North the surfer has to read lists.
ACTION – Mike Sandford - Make clickable map of all English measurers also available on UKA website
A .pdf file of the Course Measurement Theory Lessons was produced as a one off by a trainee. This can be printed as 144 A4 size pages. This was valuable work done by means of a later version of the Adobe Acrobat program than I had. Unfortunately it is was not practical to maintain the file upto date since small modifications are often made by me to the lessons on-line. Therefore I have so far not made the out-of-date .pdf file widely available to trainees and measurers. However, recently I have obtained Acrobat Version 8 and expect to be able to keep the file up to date. Some work may be needed to improve the index.
Little progress has been made on the following long term objectives:
Ability to appoint additional certifiers (this requires a lot more automation of the certification process which at present goes on behind the scenes.)
On-line calculation and filling in of measurement reports i.e. bicycle calibration sheet & Measurement details sheets. – A pilot project indicates that this is feasible but more work needs to be done. This has now been shelved indefinitely due to pressure of other work.
Conversion of Theory Seminar to produce different versions for IAAF and for specific countries as required.
Display of course details for the Midlands from the database of Phil Holland.
Extension of the South facilities for display of course maps and renewal of certificates on-line to other areas of the UK. This can only be a rather long term aim since it will require significant changes to the existing systems operated successfully in other areas for many years.
The website continues to be very busy with over 100,000 visits recorded in the last 12 months. (This has increased from about 20,000 visits last year. The increase is probably due both to the new facilities and pages available, as well as better links to the site.)
| Summary by Month |
||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Month |
Daily Avg |
Monthly Totals |
||||||||
| Hits |
Files |
Pages |
Visits |
Sites |
KBytes |
Visits |
Pages |
Files |
Hits |
|
Nov 2008 |
2144 |
2019 |
1329 |
200 |
3126 |
486407 |
5604 |
37239 |
56550 |
60052 |
Oct 2008 |
2201 |
2066 |
1393 |
234 |
4657 |
620376 |
7264 |
43195 |
64059 |
68232 |
Sep 2008 |
2062 |
1971 |
1199 |
202 |
4212 |
482913 |
6063 |
35973 |
59150 |
61876 |
Aug 2008 |
1812 |
1727 |
1332 |
164 |
3504 |
511472 |
5114 |
41314 |
53545 |
56174 |
Jul 2008 |
1768 |
1687 |
1293 |
294 |
5038 |
543573 |
9122 |
40102 |
52308 |
54830 |
Jun 2008 |
1838 |
1763 |
1316 |
404 |
6777 |
610945 |
12138 |
39508 |
52913 |
55156 |
May 2008 |
1876 |
1775 |
1254 |
493 |
7536 |
648228 |
15284 |
38878 |
55031 |
58177 |
Apr 2008 |
1710 |
1626 |
1161 |
529 |
6487 |
526619 |
15886 |
34855 |
48789 |
51322 |
Mar 2008 |
1190 |
1076 |
800 |
341 |
5663 |
461094 |
10585 |
24800 |
33364 |
36899 |
Feb 2008 |
1056 |
982 |
678 |
249 |
4455 |
407750 |
7221 |
19662 |
28493 |
30643 |
Jan 2008 |
1112 |
1054 |
743 |
294 |
4379 |
820247 |
9130 |
23042 |
32674 |
34498 |
Dec 2007 |
847 |
805 |
592 |
292 |
3368 |
621051 |
9066 |
18370 |
24977 |
26277 |
| Totals |
6740675 |
112477 |
396938 |
561853 |
594136 |
|||||
Mike Sandford 29 Nov 2008
Mike Sandford said that he had not been able to work on the newsletter agreed at last year's meeting, due to pressure of other measurement work. It was suggested that most measurers could now use the web, so that should be the main medium to send out newsletter type information to measurers. Some measurers do not use email and/or the web, and Alan Ritchie said he sends out printed copies of web material to these measurers. It was agreed that this would be an effective means of ensuring all were provided with continuing information about developments and reduce the isolation which might otherwise occur.
Phil Holland showed the results from his bicycle mounted GPS unit (Garmin
eTrex Vista Cx ) on one of his courses which he has measured with the Jones
Counter many times. When he downloaded the data which his GPS recorded and
plotted them, quite fine detail could be accurately resolved showing small
bike movements of less than 1m. After editing the track, he could get fair
agreement with the Jones counter, certainly much better than the performance
of runners wearing wrist or arm mounted GPS units. Nevertheless, he was of
the opinion that the technique would not make a viable alternative to the Jones
Counter for measuring in the forseeable future. It was a useful aid in recording.
He expects to produce a report in due course.
ACTION – Phil Holland
circulate a report on GPS work when complete
It was reported that an arrangement had been made by the three English area measurement secretaries to certify measurements made for ARC events by measurers.
The number of ARC events so certified since January 2008 was :
Midlands: 14 certificates, 3 measurements
North: 3 certificates
South 23 certificates, 4 measurements
ARC have met costs for training and equipping 2 measurers from ARC clubs who in fact will also measure for UKA races, usefully filling existing holes in the coverage. Two further ARC club members are in training and also potentially able to cover an existing measurement 'hole'. ARC have also funded a new website to deal with their courses. Usefully, the ARC webserver also contributes online storage space for course measurement maps and reports.
Phil Holland noted that the ARC had not grown greatly in size during the last year.
It was concluded that the ARC work had been done without impact to the work being done for the UKA's CMWP, and no costs of the ARC work had fallen on the UKA. Also the arrangement avoids extra work for measurers and provided the means to avoid the previously noted problem of ARC races using the RRC/UKA certified accurate logo, developed by the CMWP over the years, and used now for UKA races.
Claims for travel to this meeting should be sent to
John Temperton, Athletics services, UK Athletics Limited, Athletics House, Central Boulevard, Blythe Valley Park, Solihull, West Midlands, B90 8AJ. email: jtemperton@ukathletics.org.uk.
Include copies of receipts etc where possible
(ACTION – Phil Holland - purchase more high visibility bibs with course measurer on back) – NOT yet done. Further action agreed since Mike now has only 2 vests left. Both Phil and Mike to get quote for at least 20 depending on price breaks. UKA to pay.
(ACTION: – Mike Sandford to purchase some signs and trial their use) NOT done yet
ACTION – Phil Holland - investigate possible constitutions based on charitable organisations and similar to which he has access.
ACTION – Hugh Jones - discuss CMWP affiliation with RRC Officers. Target time – 1 to 2 weeks.
ACTION – Hugh Jones - to discuss CMWP affiliation with Bill Reynolds of BARR. Target time – 1 to 2 weeks.
ACTION – John Glover - Supply report for review. CMWP - accredit
John as grade 2 on completion of satisfactory review.
(Note added 6 Dec. - Alan Ritchie reported that John's measurement
report for the Titanic Quater 10k was accurate and of a high standard --
Accordingly John Glover is now accredited as a grade 2 UKA course measurerthis
-- this action is now completed.)
ACTION – Phil Holland - to produce first draft of response to consultation paper and circulate to CMWP for detailed comment Target time – 1 to 2 weeks.
ACTION – Mike Sandford - Make clickable map of all English measurers also available on UKA website
ACTION – Phil Holland - circulate a report on GPS work when complete
Final Approved Version of minutes published 6 Dec 2008.